What's always concerned me about Zapruder films is that their most successful show to date is "Give em enough rope' - and I think that's exactly what they're doing to the ad industry......

Good on you Darryn! I've been thinking exactly the same thoughts for over a year but didn't have the guts to put my name to it.

Every time I go into the ABC Shop and see all the Gruen merchandise for sale I think what mugs we all are.

But what can we do about it? How about if Todd and Russ and the panellists don't roll up next week until Zapruder agrees to pay a 10 percent royalty to AWARD?

Agree. Denton is a money man. He probably played too much Monopoly when he was young. I bet he always wanted to be the car.

Are we mugs for not asking in the first place?

Couldn't agree more!

Finally! Watching the poor buggers waiting on the couch always makes me squirm.

That is truly hilarious. Do you seriously think The Pitch involves "IP"? A lot of rather rude & inappropriate things come to mind, but the most obvious is if you don't want to give away your incredible ideas then don't.

Jules @ 12:33... The Pitch is not the IP of The Gruen Transfer. Don't you see that the IP is Todd, Russ, Matt, Jane, Daniel and all the other industry guests who come on for free, week in and week out. Without them Zapruder would have nothing.

The only people that like going on the show are egotistical creatives that think they are the next Russell Crowe. "5 minute fame"... if you can call it that.

Yep totally agree. FYI, I don't watch the show... Can't stand it.

I haven't seen the show in its entirity, but have seen clips and know the premise, so take these comments in that context. But two things.

It says much about the industry that we didn't see the potential at the front end, and make a deal accordingly. But maybe there is room for negotiation should it go into another season.

The show (once again, without seeing it) is likely doing more for the advertising industry than we are doing for it. It's educating the public about the industry, which includes future clients and future ad people, and it might be putting advertising on the career radar of some smart people who otherwise would have done something else. It's also educating the public as to what good advertising is, and if more people are expectiing good, it more opportunity to create good ('great' would be a better word, but you get the drift).

And it may even give people more respect for what we do.

Ok, that's three things...and my 2 cents.

TGS doesn't do anything for our business.....it does the opposite. It trivialises what we do and shows us all up for the attention seeking, over paid wankers that we can all be at times. Thats why its popular....and you're right Darren, we're the idiots who moan about copyrighting our intellectual properties with one hand whilst giving them away on the other.

Though the ABC doesn't pay well compared to commercial TV, I doubt Todd, Russ and Co. do it for free.

Todd, Russ, anything to declare?

However, isn't it like the movie production companies and actors asking movie review TV shows for money? Come on guys, Zap has no duty to pay anyone but the people who come on the show. Are you suggesting that Ant and Grant should get $20 per second of Big Ad on their show, or should it go to Fosters?

If anything raising the standards of the publics understanding is more than we could ever ask of a TV show. For once we can start to say, "Excuse me Mr/Mrs Client, that shit just doesn't work anymore."

If Zap want to donate to the industry as in AWARD / AFA, good on em. But as you allude to, I've lectured many Award school nights for about the same amount.

Actually, many other industries offer their expertise at no cost in order to raise the profiles of specific companies (or people). The first two that come to mind are:

At the end of the news, there is always a bank giving the finance report and their predictions regarding interest rates, price of oil etc. As I understand it, they are not paid for this.

On any securities trading site, there are a number of stockbrokers giving one or two free recommendations as to what to invest in (they definitely aren't paid for this).

All of these instances involve a company offering a very limited amount of their IP in exchange for a marketing opportunity. Furthermore, they both also make someone else money (the TV station and the trading site respectively).

Appearing on the Gruen Transfer is a both a business and personal choice for the panelists. If you don't like the idea of giving away 'your' IP, then don't, but don't begrudge those that have made the choice to do so.

I respectfully disagree Darryn. I say respectfully because I truly respect your guts for jumping into this pool of burning acid known as the blog.

Here's my point. This is a free market that we live in. If someone has an idea for a show on a certain subject, they owe nothing to that subject. If they use our IP, which they do, they need only ask for permission, which they do(as far as I understand). The E! channel doesn't pay Hollywood or the entertainment industry a cent for their shows. In my eyes, we should be happy our industry is interesting enough that 1.5 million Australians, or whatever it is, want to watch. We may agree or disagree with the opinions on the show but would it be at all interesting if we just agreed with everything? That would be a boring Cannes seminar. This is aimed at real people.

Now, if you had actually written the show or pitched the idea for the show to the networks, you of course would be entitled to be paid and could in turn put the money you received into the very organizations you are talking about. Unfortunately, it was Denton's idea, so he is free to do what he wants. Maybe he wants to re-invest in great television writers. Maybe he wants to re-invest in another show. Maybe he wants a penile enlargement. Up to him I guess. This ain't communism.

The only other thing I am wondering is whether the show makes any money at all considering it is on SBS and there are no ads?

I think the real issue here is that we receive nothing back for allowing ourselves collectively to appear as shallow tossers. No one would be complaining if they didn't feel that twang of shame at how one-dimensional and utterly irrelevant the entire advertising oeuvre appears over those 30 minutes. We employ the top brains to attempt to turn shit into gold day after day and yet it is re-presented to the Australian public as some kind of turgid, even unfunnier version of Spicks and Specks. Rather than asking for something back from Zapruder, we should be asking for something better.

Geez. Talk about short sighted. Ever heard of PR as a marketing tactic?

Gruen Transfer is like shows such as World's funniest commercials.
They don't even ask for a dub ... they just nick the commercials off the web.
And what if you were an actor in one of the commercials that was put to air to earn money for a network without your permission? It is not even a debate. It's a discrace

An audience of over a million, full of the people you want to get in front of (as a business) & you're complaining.

You mean those plastic trophies they give out on The Pitch are worthless? Come on, they gave out 2 last week!

The Todd Sampson show is great. I can't get enough of it.

Agency's you make me laugh! Our production company did a freebie for an agency for the Gruen Transfer we did not even get a mention nor did we get a job from the agency. I just love seeing agency's getting ripped off and manipulated because thats exactly how you treat your suppliers. Sucked in!

The show and in particular, 'The Pitch' puts good and bad ideas under the microscope and demonstrates (by audience reaction and reasonably intelligent discussion) what works and what doesn't.

Surely that can only help clients (an avid audience I hear) to keep it real and perhaps stray from their marketing manuals occasionally.

I believe we'll all benefit down the track.

I'm surprised how distracted the Aussie ad industry is with this TV show.

Shouldn't ad agencies be concentrating on doing good work?

In an industry that happily exploits juniors, production companies, people with grey hair, and marginalises people who dare not hail from the Eastern suburbs, ignores employment laws with breathtaking arrogance, I reckon it's a bit rich that someone is saying the industry should put its hand out.

Gruen is promoting the industry, helping things like AWARD application numbers, creating a large stage for agencies to show what it can do to potential clients, reminding creatives that, yes, it can still be fun and doing it all in the middle of a big recession.

Nobody is getting screwed here, Darryn.

Lynchy,

VB ads are disgraceful ... seems like I'm not the only one who thinks so:

http://business.smh.com.au/business/raise-a-glass-idea-raises-fuss-in-rsl-20090422-aff2.html

Surely this is news worth and should be spoken about?

SD.

If you extend Darryn's argument, everyone out there making a buck by replaying commercials - and here I mean One Show, Cannes, Campaign Brief and even Award itself - ought to pay royalties, if not to the agencies and their clients, then at perhaps to the actors, VOs, musicians, etc. But that would be plain silly and unenforcable. Surely free advertising is more a windfall than a rip off.

Oscar Wilde said it best: "The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about." One the occasions when my ads have been picked up and recycled by the media I've always been absolutely delighted.

I mostly agree with 8.53. They don't owe us anything. Denton quite rightly assumed we'd be hungry for the publicity for our agencies. In fact, some agencies have poured thousands into showing off their skills in front of the nation and some have proven to be insightful and skillful, others have proven to be tools.

It's good PR. I think clients are more impressed with a Gruen trophy, than a caxton or something else. Also if we start asking for real compensation for our time and effort, it wouldn't be too hard for Zapruder to come up with something else to fill 3 minutes. If you don't like it, don't go on it. If you don't like the show, turn it off.

Fucking excellent DD ...

I've wondered why adland hadn't realised they were at best providing free content and at worst, showing they weren't worth the money or the hype ... so top nods for coming out and asking the questions the CEO's of adland should of been considering 20 years ago.

I'm with you 10.03.....they are a total disgrace. Using Anzac day and the spirit of the 'Digger ' to promote VB is frankly disgusting.

I can't even see the boat thats sailed - it went so long ago! Just a bunch of tools in jeans and big framed glasses telling each other they missed it and pointing at the horizon. Look behind you! the GFC is about to push you idiots off the pier. Get back to work.

Hey here's a crazy idea...
Why not get Zapruder to start an organization to help out all the retrenched creatives there are out there at the moment.
A lot of them have families to support.
Maybe they could offer some support/re-training/mentoring on how to get back into the work force after loosing your job.

NO ONE IS DOING THAT.
In fact why isn't Award doing that?

However popular the show is, or how much money it makes, my biggest issue is that it supports a dumbed down version of what we do.

It's celebrity over genuine talent, and a cheap laugh over original thinking.

And the panel almost always perpetuates the kind of cliche that's most frustrating in this business.

People wanting fame so badly they're willing to pay for it?
That would never happen in the advertising industry, surely?

FREE content for Denton or FREE PR for Devlin?

Anyone else noticed it's Earth Day today?

And that it was started in 1970.

http://www.earthday.net/

I wonder what their Titanium entry looks like?

Rob @ cynic , you are an obnoxious bald little c*nt and you are shit at table soccer when playing rangers. your only saving grace is your conjouring and sleight of hand magic tricks...

regards,

you know who.

Mum, can you stop embarrasing yourself like that please.

Love you,

Rx

Laying shit on the ABC DD? Are they a client of yours?

i think you're being greedy. you're ads are receiving FREE air time on the one channel you could never advertise on before now. if you can't handle people deconstructing what you've done, you're probably working in an unethical or lazy manner. what do you have to fear from the truth about your ads being revealed to the public? do you really think some shitty little show on the ABC is making millions of bucks off your ads? wake up. harden up. grow up. making ads is an artistic and creative endeavour and people will always criticise art forms - especially on TV.

big whoop! thats what i say.

Christ , get over it . Its only television, take a pee if you cant handle it.

Darryn, you said it yourself – "they have sold the concept into the UK market".

The SHOW is the concept – the idea. Your work – or adland's work – is simply the show's subject matter. Your ads are the topics of conversation. They are the butt of the jokes. How they have packaged all this together is THEIR concept, their product! How could you possibly think you have any ownership of this?

The only egos bigger than those that are on the show, are those that think they (or the industry) are worthy of a cut!

The Gruen Transfer has past its use by date.

from my lofty viewpoint, let me just add the observation that Zapruder added the value. The content IS of course valuable too... but in this context, only when packaged as it now is. And i'm sure if the show had tanked few would have been giving them credit for having a shot at the idea... and even fewer been offering to help them out with their $ losses.

regardless of when the boat sailed and the horse bolted; they set the rigging, they held the reins ... but most importantly, they dreamed up how to make our process into entertainment. then they got up early enough and put their money where their ideas were.

and for all the mindpower, production expertise, organisational prowess and spending power in our ad community, nobody... from our industry has even attempted it AFAIK. Certainly no-one has made it work like this show.

And I for one, like the idea that people with these kinds of smarts, balls & skills make good money and that the ABC gets a financial shot in the arm to go fund more programs that richen our choice outside the mainstream... esp when it's regionally focussed.

Bless u Zapruder & Auntie BC.

Yeah its a shame but it's really too late now to ask for payment. I guess nobody expected it to be this huge. It's smart to work out some kind of deal early on. Maybe lesson learned? Maybe next time?

Nicely said 7:02.
You obviously don't work in advertising as that's the only long copy I've read in a while that has sustained my interest til the end.

Correct Darryn. The issue with TGT is that it really does nothing for the industry. And before anyone says interest in advertising as a career has increased by 3875% since the show started, let's remind ourselves that what happens on the TGT is hardly advertising.

But back to the free content. The reason why best commercials shows aren't on the box much nowadays is simply because some smart bunny figured out that when a TV station ran a show containing an ad then the talent featured in the commercial was being used for commercial gain [by TV station] in breach of the talent contract.

The interesting question would therefore be: when TGT/Zapruder have used a commercial have they [Zapruder] enjoyed commercial gain? If the answer is yes, then the talent is also entitled to payment as Zapruder has made commercial gain from the talent's performance/image without permission. [Plus the agency may have breached the talent contract between themselves and the talent by supplying the commercial for use outside of what is stipulated in the contract]

The fact is that even compile reel services could be accused of breaking the law when they charge you a fee for a reel of 'car' commercials because they are making a commercial gain from a talents performance/image without their permission. And to compound the matter, I believe agencies and production companies have no right to supply commercials to Shots/Rehame etc. as Shots/Rehame could also be accused of making commercial gain from the talent's performance/image without any payment.

But wait there's more......once a company no longer wants to use a commercial and the talent's contract has expired that doesn't give anyone the right to use that commercial for commercial gain - lets say in a best commercials show [the commercial gain being the station has used the talent's performance in the show to sell media time, or maybe used the commercial to sell the show to other markets] - unless the talent has agreed to its use.

So, be very careful ladies and gentlemen, because one day soon someone is going to see their image on a show like TGT or a Shots Reel and start yelling "show me the money"

If there's money to be had it should go to the very generous production companies.

So by this rationale Darren, Archive Mag, CB Mag, Shots and any other publication company should all kick in too.

Cause from where I sit, they do the exact same thing, but in a different media. ie. take what we do from us for free (sometimes even charge us, the FWA is $90 per submission if i recall) and package it all up. Oh and if they really put in a bit of effort there may even be some editorial that's worth reading/listening to.

Richen???

You're God. Conjure yourself a dictionary.

DD I think what you say is pretty much right. The Gruen Transfer bothers me on another level too.

Sure it's entertainment. But an inevitable takeout from "The Pitch" is that we're amoral. We'll pretty much sell anything or any cause for money - and in this case we'll actually spend agency money and just do it for ego/publicity. How bizarre is that? As if there weren't enough unpaid pitches to wear ourselves out on, now we do it on the one station that doesn't even carry advertising...odd.

Many people already think we are overpaid wankers who go to lunch and take drugs. (Sweet Jesus, if only it were true!). Others wrongly think we are wildly artistic and envy us our crazy genius. Most probably don't really care.

I love cracking an idea. I enjoy selling it and get a buzz when it sells stuff in turn, but iI don't think it's in any way glamorous - especially when salaries are going down as hours increase and jobs are shed. And yes, for me it still beats pulling beers, waiting tables, digging holes, being a cubicle slave and making pizzas.

I think Denton, very smart man that he is, has hit upon a great way to help us show ourselves in the worst possible light. TGT helps us live down to expectations. I have probably watched about half of both series and respect for most of the panelists and many of the pitch bit contestants. However, rather than helping us mark new territory, I reckon TGT mostly shows the industry pissing on its own leg.

As many others have said here - mostly anonymously (why are we so scared?) - we give way too much away. Perhaps it's because we really like what we do. Whatever the reason, we've fallen far behind many other professions in both remuneration and status. So when it comes to TGT on balance I think we are being laughed at, not with.

Pete Watman

Writer

You notice the best agencies don't go on the Gruen panel, let alone The Pitch segment: the likes of Host, The Glue Society, Saatchi, Clemenger, Lowe, 3 Drunk Monkeys, CRC.

Even with Todd and Russ there, they don't get their respective ECDs (Andy and Jay and Ben Coulson), on the show.

The Pitch segment is only for 2nd and 3rd rate shops, desperate for attention.

Imagine The Footy Show without any star players from all the top clubs, that's TGT.

Good points Edward.

Other good agencies that haven't gone anywhere near TGT: Mojo, BMF, Droga5, JWT, Grey, Ogilvy, BWM. Also DDB as far as The Pitch segment is concerned, despite Matt being on the panel sometimes.

Don't forget Whybin\TBWA and Cummins. Really, none of the real agencies have been on Gruen!

why would any smart agency go on, work for nothing for some else to make the money

just think, to pitch would probably be 200 hours, average billable cost 200?
whats that 40 grand of work

it is just plain stoopid!!!

DD for ABC Board!!

The ABC is the only place in town where you can watch a 1 hour programme that isn't 25 minutes long.

Get the ads off my ABC!

Actually Edward, I think you'll find Glue Society have been on the Pitch. Remember when they pitched Australia as a great place to bury a body?

But to return to the real argument regarding "our IP". We would be in a lot stronger position to argue the point if as an industry we had by now come up with a way of getting properly remunerated for our ideas by our clients. But instead we meekly surrender all IP rights to an idea for (in most cases) either a monthly retainer or a few head hours.

We've already established ourselves as intellectual prostitutes. All we're arguing over here is the price.

Is it true that the other DD on TV is based on our very own?

I enjoy the show at times, although it really just feels like another half hour talking about work during my 'porn' hour, so I'm not overly fussed if I miss it.

For the most part the Panel regurgitates tired old cliches we've heard a million times in an agency. Russell at least seems to have some genuine intelligence and it's a shame he gets talked over by a random fact generator on the other end.

But for the viewer not in the industry, I guess this is some bizarre look into the strange cult of advertising. Argumentative people with bad fashion and strange haircuts saying word's like 'end benefit' or 'consumer focused' probably leave them pissing their pants laughing.

One thing I really dislike is the way Will's questions are loaded. There was one a few weeks ago along the lines of "Oh, petro-chemicals, evil shit, how do you sell it? How do you convince people to buy this evil, evil chemical."

Nobody piped up and said.. "Ah... you drive Will? Think about it, it's not that hard. We don't have to trick people with an ad for coffee to get them next to the pump."

Or "Have you thought for a second it might be the client who's evil? We're just the messengers, passing on the free coffee coupon to you."

Instead it degenerated into a discussion about how evil advertising agencies are for selling this stuff, morality issues, etc, yet clearly the show couldn't have even happened without someone driving everyone there.

It makes us look like the cliched Satan's henchmen who've sold our souls and our Grandmothers for big bucks on Madison Avenue, instead of the hard working, very patient, nice individuals we generally are. I think DD's right, Denton's loving it, the show aims to show the real side of advertising but it's still loaded with the old cliches we've been trying to break for decades.

I guess to sum it all up, I feel it really undoes what we've been trying to do the past 10-15 years or so:

1. Tell the truth in an engaging way and hopefully people will respond accordingly.
2. Where possible do ads that actually benefit the consumer (eg millions project).
3. Keep the bastard clients honest wherever we can.

As for the production companies and agencies doing shit for free – no-one held a gun to your head, you wouldn't do it if you didn't love it. Admit it. You love taking it from behind. Come on. Now I've got this great script, no budget but could win an award...

Yes Steve, all the other agencies are pretend ones that float around in a magical little bubble winning imaginary awards for imaginary pretend fairy clients.

I kind of get where you are coming from DD. But as an industry to say "for shame" on TGT for using us for their own ends, I think that's a bit much.

I think all of us at one time or another have thought about trying to get a TV show up about advertising - lord knows all the channels are jumping on it now, yet we "as an industry" haven't made any positive sway in that.

The fact that TGT got it up and made a success of it - all power to them. It's no different to a show about music playing video clips and having a panel review and discuss the albums and then have a few guest performers play a number.

As for The Pitch - if we all think it makes us look evil (as some on here seem to claim) then we are spending way too much time up our own arses. Agency's hope to get on to show off their wares - "look how clever we are at Agency X". It's a light hearted look at how creative the industry can be.

I would love to know from people like Todd, Russel, panelists and Pitch agencies if it has indeed helped them get on more new business lists, or at least open a few more doors for them?

More worryingly, why has Darryn got a hand growing from his left shoulder?

sarah, et al:

most of the agencies you assume have shunned TGT have had individuals desperate to get themselves on there as panelists.

Don't kid yourself. Getting involved in the pitch segment is a bit of a losing proposition, but there's no shortage of agencies who'd love to have one of their management team on the panel.

Edward, hate to put another agency you got wrong into the mix but Lowe were on Gruen. They pitched 'make celibacy attractive' and lost to MJW!

And Edward Cummins did it this year and DDB did last year with "Meat of the Sea"

Hey, success is for losers jerks, didn't they teach you that in AWARD school?

Now get back to slagging you positive fucks.

This is a joke.

The Pitch is a tiny part of the program, which promotes agencies to a wide audience who would otherwise never have heard of them, and the rest of the show is a discussion of material that clients have already paid for, and would mostly be happy to see getting more air time.

Insights from a (deservedly) failed AWARD school applicant:

1. You don't have to be in advertising to have an opinion on it - that's why the Transfer works

2. Not everyone thinks advertising is evil - most people don't care - and the Transfer hasn't tried to portray it as such. Will may have poked fun but the panelists have handled it well.

What GT has taught the general public:

1. GOOD advertising is harder than it looks and can sometimes inform and entertain

2. And .........GT inadvertantly gives the Ad Industry a chance to explain itself on issues of questionable moral fibre such as selling junk food to kids and well..... trying to pretend banks aren't trying to rip us off etc etc

I'm working at the ABC briefly but have nothing to do with GT.
Anonymous entries - put your fricking name down you spinless cowards

how is this for ridiculous... the democrats approached the winning agency on the pitch to run their ad, but TGT told them they couldnt without TGT approval!!!!

now that is funny....and so very very sad

Oh for heaven's sake, there are financial panels shows, music panel shows, fashion panel shows.. and none of their industries react like this. No wonder people think we're a bunch of wankers.

What kind of a name is Johnny Power anyway?

Gruen only works cause it's after Spicks and Specks and there's nothing on at that time on a Wednesday.

The smiling Assassin loves his 5 minutes of fame. Mind you it's the only place he can get it.

Hey Max Awesomeness,
Gruen outrated Spicks and Specks. Explain that.